Today’s FiveStack turned into something we didn’t expect—a passionate, substantive debate between two whistleblowers about how to actually stop Trump’s authoritarian takeover. But first, they agreed on the foundation: it is our sacred duty to defend against tyranny. That’s not up for debate. The Constitution demands it. History requires it. The question isn’t whether to resist—it’s how to organize that resistance most effectively.
Lev Parnas came on with a singular message: the Epstein files are the key. They contain direct evidence of Trump’s criminality. If the resistance makes their release the singular, relentless demand, it’s game over. But the resistance is scattered across a hundred battles, exhausting itself on symptoms while ignoring the disease.
Zev pushed back: history shows authoritarian regimes don’t fall to single revelations—they fall to sustained, visible resistance that makes the system unsustainable. We need coordinated protest at Lafayette Square, not scattered demonstrations Trump can pick off. One growing chorus outside the White House using the constitutional right to petition for redress of grievances, backed by Federalist 28’s defense of the people’s right to resist tyranny.
It was the kind of debate the resistance needs to have out loud. Not because there’s an easy answer, but because the strategic choices matter. While Trump demolishes the White House for a billionaire ballroom and considers pardoning sex traffickers, everyone agrees on the sacred duty. The genuine disagreement is about execution.
The Parnas Perspective: The Epstein Files Are The Key
Lev’s position is stark and uncompromising. The Epstein files contain direct evidence of Trump’s criminal conduct. They’re the roadmap to the corruption inhabiting the White House. Maxwell got Trump’s “Queen for a Day” immunity deal during her proffer sessions—meaning she gave prosecutors information in exchange for limited immunity. That information almost certainly implicates Trump directly.
Virginia Giuffre’s posthumous memoir drops today, documenting her trafficking by Epstein and Maxwell starting at Mar-a-Lago when she was 16. Her testimony died with her when she took her own life at 41. Meanwhile, rumors swirl about potential clemency for both Maxwell and Diddy. Trump’s clemency record proves he pardons anyone who can offer him something—money, loyalty, silence.
Lev’s thesis: if those files become the singular demand of every protest, every congressional inquiry, every media interview—if Democrats and Republicans alike face constant pressure to release them—it’s game over for Trump. This is the smoking gun. This is the direct evidence. But instead, the resistance is scattered across a hundred different battles, exhausting itself on symptoms while ignoring the disease.
His concern about current protests runs deeper: Trump’s playbook expects scattered First Amendment demonstrations. He wants protesters in Portland and Chicago to show up predictably so the National Guard can arrest them, label them Antifa, and use them as examples of “chaos” requiring more authoritarian crackdown. The game has changed. You can’t play 1960s protest tactics in a 2025 authoritarian framework and expect the same results.
“Trump understands that most people want to use the Constitution against them,” Lev argued. “What most people don’t understand is Trump doesn’t care about the Constitution you’re trying to use against them.”
The Shalev Counter: Lafayette Square And The Constitutional Right To Resist
Zev’s response acknowledged the power of the Epstein files—yes, they matter, demand them. But he offered a different organizing principle rooted in the document Trump claims to revere but actually fears: the Constitution itself.
The vision is specific: sustained, coordinated protest at Lafayette Square, directly across from the White House. Not scattered demonstrations in Portland and Chicago that Trump can pick off with the National Guard. Not one-time marches that generate headlines then dissipate. A constant, growing presence—organized with volunteer shifts, coordinated messaging, visible every single day.
The demand: release the Epstein files. Hear our votes. Redress our grievances. Restore democracy.
The constitutional foundation: Federalist Paper 28, where Alexander Hamilton wrote explicitly about the people’s right to resist tyranny. Hamilton understood that when government becomes destructive of the ends for which it was established, the people must have recourse. He wrote: “If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government.”
This isn’t revolution—it’s the Constitution working as designed. The right to petition for redress of grievances isn’t a polite suggestion. It’s the escape valve the Founders built in when they knew tyranny would eventually come again.
History proves the model works. South Africa’s apartheid didn’t collapse from one revelation—it fell when sustained resistance made the system unsustainable. Ukraine’s Orange Revolution. Eastern Europe’s Velvet Revolution. Everywhere authoritarianism crumbled, it was because people maintained presence, the international community couldn’t ignore it, and the cost of suppression exceeded the cost of capitulation.
“I’m not calling for a revolution,” Zev stressed. “I’m calling for what the Constitution explicitly protects—sustained, visible, peaceful resistance using our sacred right to defend against tyranny. One location. Growing numbers. Volunteer shifts so people can participate without burning out. Make it impossible to ignore and impossible to suppress without proving our point about tyranny.”
Yes, maintain every other check and balance—the courts, the investigations, the documentation, the congressional pressure. But center it all around one visible manifestation of the people exercising their constitutional right to say: this government has lost its legitimacy, and we will be heard.
Meanwhile, Democracy Gets Demolished
While two men debated strategy, the news kept rolling in:
The White House is literally being torn down. Demolition crews began ripping apart the East Wing with backhoes to build Trump’s $250 million ballroom—despite his explicit promise the construction wouldn’t “touch” the existing building. After photos went viral, Treasury immediately gagged employees from sharing images. The 90,000-square-foot addition is financed by corporate donations up to $25 million from Apple, Amazon, Coinbase. Power buying access while destroying the People’s House.
Trump’s nominee for the Office of Special Counsel—the agency that investigates discrimination—told a Republican group chat that MLK’s holiday belongs in “the seventh circle of hell.” Paul Ingrassia used racial slurs, declared all Black holidays should be “eviscerated,” and admitted “I do have a Nazi streak in me from time to time.” His confirmation hearing is Thursday.
Trump’s Putin summit collapsed. Days after announcing they’d meet “within two weeks,” the White House now says there are “no plans” for a meeting “in the immediate future.” Russia rejected his freeze-the-conflict proposal. Zelensky warned that Russia only negotiates when Ukraine has weapons—the opposite of Trump’s approach. The Art of the Deal president can’t close.
And Canada’s Blue Jays are going to the World Series. Down 3-1 in the seventh inning of Game 7, George Springer sent one over the fence. For the first time in 32 years, the team from the “fake country” will play for America’s national pastime trophy. Lunch pail kids versus the $600 million Dodgers. If they win, does Trump invite them to the White House he’s demolishing?
The Debate Matters
Here’s why today’s argument between Lev and Zev matters more than the usual resistance platitudes: they agreed completely on the foundation. It is our sacred duty to defend against tyranny. The Constitution demands it. The Founders built it into our framework knowing this moment would come. That’s settled.
But the strategic question—where to focus limited time, energy, and resources—is where they genuinely disagree.
Lev believes the Epstein files are the smoking gun that ends this. Everything else is a distraction from the one thing that could actually bring Trump down. The resistance needs to stop scattering its energy and demand one thing relentlessly until it breaks through.
Zev believes sustained, visible, constitutional resistance at Lafayette Square—combined with all other checks and balances—is what history shows actually topples authoritarian regimes. Not one revelation, but sustained pressure that makes the system unsustainable. South Africa. Ukraine. Eastern Europe. The pattern is clear.
These aren’t easily reconciled positions. Lev sees focused demands on files as the strategy. Zev sees Lafayette Square protests demanding multiple things—including transparency on Epstein—as the strategy. One emphasizes singular focus. The other emphasizes sustained, visible, multi-front pressure.
Both men have earned the right to their positions through their sacrifices and their witness. The debate between them is the debate the resistance needs to have—not to pick a winner, but to understand the strategic choices in front of us.
Because the endpoint everyone agrees on: this government has to go. The sacred duty to defend against tyranny isn’t debatable—that’s the Constitution talking. The strategic execution is what patriots are arguing about, and that argument matters.
What do you think? Join the conversation below.
The FiveStack is available as an audio podcast on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Advertising inquiries email next@narativ.org. The FiveStack is a co-production of deanblundell.substack.com and narativ.org.
